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Well, what's the biggest changes in wi fi?

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I mean, we want to get into the weeds and the details, but like just off the top of your head, what

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are you excited about in this new release of wi fi?

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Yeah, I mean, the most exciting thing for me is off the EMA, which is multiple access, BSS coloring

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and also target wake time.

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So those are like your top three things.

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Yep.

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So but do you have like, just like a quick overview of what each of those actually are?

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Yeah.

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Off the me is borrowed from cellular technologies where it allows multiple access onto the channel.

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So you're subdividing a channel into multiple sub channels and then you got BSS coloring, which helps

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in high density situations where if you're on the same same channel, you can tell if another transmission

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is coming from a different network or this basic service set.

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And then target wake time is really meant for power saving.

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It's a better power saving mechanism where it's a scheduled, scheduled wake for clients and it's catered

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towards Iot and mobile device.

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So assuming well that you had.

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A perfect, pristine environment.

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So you had your your Samsung phone just at home.

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You've got one app.

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There's no interference.

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What is the speed, theoretically, that you should get?

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Theoretically, you'll probably get over one gigabit per second.

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Right?

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So assuming your access point is connected to a one gig port and and you've got the bandwidth wherever

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you're at, you do a speed test, everyone goes a speed test dot net.

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You could probably get close to a gig or even over a gig.

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As long as that phone that device has capabilities can go over a gig, you're going to need a little

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bit more radio chains.

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You're going to need to support more channel widths.

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Right?

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You have to support 80 and 160 megahertz channel width.

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That's how you're going to get more throughput is by using more channel widths, channel bonding up

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to 160 megahertz and then having more radio chains that transmit more data.

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So the more data you can transmit, the more throughput you can get.

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I just wanted to say for everyone who didn't understand off the terms that Orwell was talking about,

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we're going to talk about those terms in this video.

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So don't worry too much about that.

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But I just wanted to have that in the beginning, to put him on the spot about how fast it will actually

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be, because I believe it's supposed to be in theory, four times as fast or five times as fast as AC.

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Is that right?

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That's what they claim.

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I like that.

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I like the way you said that.

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That's what they claim.

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And possibly in a lab environment, that's that's that's how it works.

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But in the lab environment, how are they testing it?

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Right.

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Is it one device or is it.

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Ten devices or is it 200 devices?

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Because if it's 200 devices, I don't know if I can't see everyone getting over a gig speed.

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Just because of how wifi works.

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Yeah.

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I mean, apart from the fact that some apps like we I was, we were given these Cisco apps, they only

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have a 2.5 giga.

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Sorry, 2.5 gig uplink.

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So I mean, if you have 200 devices, I mean, you still got to share that uplink speed.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So you're you're always going to be limited by, you know, upstream and whatever port you're connected

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to and also ultimately what your bandwidth is leaving your building.

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Yeah.

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I mean, yeah.

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I mean, I've only got like 60 mega megabits per second at home on my Internet connection.

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It's not really going to help me having a gig.

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And not to mention at.

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At a lot of events or if you go to a conference, there's a lot of people that still like to throttle

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users.

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So even though we may have wi fi six capability and everything's wi fi six, there's still a lot of

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venues that are probably going to throw out all your your bandwidth down to less than ten megs.

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Yeah, that's a good point.

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Just for everyone's benefit, I.

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Archer Well, just to give us a quick overview, you know, as an introduction to this video and now

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I'm going to cut back to like our original deep conversation about, you know, what, what wi fi is

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about.

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I want to shake the ground.

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A break.

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Oh, wait.

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Let loose.

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I'm tired of waiting.

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Got to make that move.

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Hey, everyone, it's David Bumble coming to you from the UK.

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Really excited to be talking to someone who knows a lot more about WiFi six and wireless technologies

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than I do.

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Well, welcome to the show.

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Yeah, thanks for having me.

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So before we get started, I met you at a Cisco event in San Jose just recently, a few weeks ago.

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It's really good to meet you.

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And I mean, I know that you and a buddy of yours have a special podcast.

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So just before we jump into the technical details, if you want to know more information about wireless

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or WiFi or well, tell us about the podcast like very quickly and then I'll start hammering you with

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questions about WiFi six.

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Yeah, sure.

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The the podcast I started back in 2015 and then I added Francois, my co-host, because it was for me,

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got a little boring talking to my wall.

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So it's a little bit more of a lively conversation.

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So we've been doing the podcasts we try to publish every week and we talk primarily about WiFi topics.

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So we do technical and a little bit some of the non-technical discussions around wireless technologies.

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And we recently did a wi fi six series where we took the draft of the of 11 802 11 ax or wi fi six as

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we're calling it now.

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And we just talked about it on the show.

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Yeah.

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I mean, if you can give me those links, I'll put them below for anyone who wants to, you know, go

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and get more detail.

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But I mean, the aim of this call is firstly to introduce you to my audience so they get to know you

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as someone who's an expert in this field, but also to like try and get some explanations of wi fi sex

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in, I would say someone who's sort of new to wireless, you know, who's watching this can understand

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it.

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So I'm going to try and get you to answer the questions as simply as possible.

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But before we go there, I mean, let's talk about your experience.

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You obviously have a lot of experience in this area, so I don't want to give it away.

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You tell the audience, you know, where do you work?

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One of your one of the places, should I say?

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One of the.

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It's quite a quite a small quite a small campus, I believe.

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Yeah.

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It's a pretty small campus on the West Coast.

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I mean, I am a network engineer for Stanford University.

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And all that really means is I do a lot of layer two switching and a lot of wireless.

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And so the campus is pretty big and going around trying to redesign a lot of areas for how wireless

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is used now versus how it was before when it was just about coverage.

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And so that's a very unique environment with a lot of different demands and requirements that people

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want, especially when it comes to lecture halls.

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So that's my background.

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I do have a networking background actually.

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I started off in Systems Administration dealing with servers and Microsoft servers and mail servers,

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and I'm glad I don't have to do that anymore, but and so do I.

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And when I do have time, I actually do a lot of wireless for other companies in the Bay Area and some

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select companies that are not in California.

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But I do help others with wireless design, configuration troubleshooting.

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And so that's on top of doing my day job and the podcast.

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Yes.

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I mean, you really busy, obviously.

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I mean, just for everyone's benefit, you wake up at 445.

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I mean, what's the time now?

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At the moment in California right now it is 5:45 a.m..

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Yeah, it's a really early.

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So thanks very much for waking up so early to talk to me.

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So let's talk about Stanford.

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I mean, how many students are they on or on the campus or how many do you have to support kind of thing?

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There's a lot.

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There's over, I believe, over 10,000 students that are on campus, I believe.

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Yeah.

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So you I mean, you've got 10,000 students, but you've also got like you got faculty staff and faculty

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staff and that's over I think all together that's over 12,000 to support everyone.

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And so for wireless, we're we do wireless for the campus.

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I'm not the only wireless guy.

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I mean, we have other network engineers.

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Sure.

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But there are some of us who who focus more on the wireless side.

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And we have to support all of those people and all the different applications they want to use.

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So it can get pretty demanding at times, especially when there's events coming and people want to do

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some pop up events where there's no wi fi there.

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It's just a tent maybe.

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Well, so we have to work with some unique environments and especially dealing with a campus that's,

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that's got architecture that nobody wants to modify, it can get challenging.

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I'm going to make a joke now.

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I mean, university students, a lot of people have this perception that they're not the how do you

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say the most user friendly type of people to support, you know, higher education is in that niche.

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I would just say there there can be some pains.

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You know, we go through that sometimes.

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I think that's on par for any university, but we try our best.

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I mean, we want wi fi to work.

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We don't want to have this stigma of we don't want to make it work.

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Yeah.

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I mean, people, I mean, I'm assuming I mean, it's a trend.

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Younger people, university students are extremely demanding when they think of the Internet.

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I think a lot of people think wi fi is the Internet.

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That's how they get onto the Internet.

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I mean, MacBooks today, iPads, iPhones, all these devices don't have physical connections.

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So what do you what are your thoughts on the sort of trend away from physical networks to wireless?

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And how is Wi-Fi six kind of, you know, making you excited for, you know, supporting your your user

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base?

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I mean, it's great, right?

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Because we don't have to stick to a single desk, right?

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So we can move.

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I do this at work sometimes.

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I don't want to sit at my desk.

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I will go somewhere else and sit maybe at one of the cafes on campus or or an area that kind of have

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like peace and quiet where no one can just walk up to me and I do that wirelessly.

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Same with any other student that wants to work, say, on the grass during the summer.

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They'll want wireless there.

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I mean, there's there's some sometimes where we can't provide that because in order to provide wireless,

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you got to have a cable going to the access point.

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And sometimes that requires trenching, digging holes or digging, digging the ground to run cabling

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to to access points.

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What I see where Wi-Fi six comes into play because Wi-Fi six really deals with high efficiency.

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That's the name that they've given it with AC.

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We had very high throughput, and so now we're trying to make wi fi more efficient with what we have.

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And I think when all our devices are wi fi six, that's when we're going to see a lot of the benefits

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of of wi fi.

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And because of that high efficiency, then we'll lead to better throughput, lower latency, and it'll

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be a much more pleasant experience when it comes to high density type environments your lecture halls,

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your events, even your dorms that could potentially increase your user experience.

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You mean it's interesting that you said like the I mean, we started off talking about like WiFi six,

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but and then you said 802. 11 AC So I'm going to start, you start with the basics.

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Why is it called WiFi six rather than some other acronym or is it called by some name?

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There's so many acronyms.

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I think that we needed to make something a little bit more simpler, especially for people who don't

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work in who are not in the trenches of wireless.

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Right.

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I call it 802. 11 AX.

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I called it 802 11 AC Those are the actual names, the standard names that Tripoli has came up with,

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but the normal student, faculty, staff, they have no idea what that is, right?

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It's just wi fi and and to them calling it wi fi six, they know like that's the latest standard wi

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fi six and they know that if they see the wi fi six sticker, then that's they're buying the latest

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equipment with the latest technology.

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Right.

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That that term came out of the wi fi alliance, whose job is to, you know, integrate these technologies

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with society and make sure it gets marketed properly out there.

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And I think it's a good name, right, for for the average person, because no one's going to know when

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I say eight to point 11.

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AX What the heck is that?

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Right.

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So Wi-Fi six makes sense.

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And then if you go backwards, right, wi fi five is 802. 11 AC and so forth.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense when I look at the names I triple E names like 82.11 E and

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then we got B and we got G and we got N and wave too.

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I mean, it's ridiculous.

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How is a normal person?

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And when I say a normal person, a non technical person, technical going to understand like what that

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actually means.

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Like, I mean is a better than G is a better than N.

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I mean it doesn't there's no sort of logic unless you're a technical person, right.

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You wouldn't know.

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And I Tripoli works that way in sequence with the letters.

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Right.

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And the reason why they're on a X is because the single letters have already been taken up.

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We don't necessarily hear about all of them.

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And some of those letters are very specific to different things.

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Yes.

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I mean, it's not just wi fi, it's other things as well.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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WI fi six encompasses a lot of different standards and amendments that have been created.

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Right.

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You've got eight 2.11.

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I nobody knows what that is, but that's security for for wi fi.

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That's your k your pre shared key that you type in to your wireless network.

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It's a very good point that I'm glad you've raised that.

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So let's get to the very important question.

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How fast or how quick?

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Because that's all we care about.

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Speed throughput.

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I'm just kidding.

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How how quick?

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How quick is Wi-Fi six compared to WI five?

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Five like in theory.

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And I don't know if you've had any practical experience deploying it yet.

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Like what is your experience?

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In theory, it should increase your throughput, but a lot of that is going to be dependent on your

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environment because wi fi in general uses what's called unlicensed frequency.

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That means anyone can develop a piece of equipment that can work on the same frequency as wi fi.

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So that's your that could be cordless phones.

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That could be wireless cameras.

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And everyone that creates this equipment interprets these standards very differently.

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So sometimes these equipment can maybe not work properly over wi fi, which could effectively lower

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your speed, your throughput and your speeds.

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And I've seen this all the time on campus where even an Apple TV and this is not to harp on Apple.

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This is just maybe a lot of people use Apple.

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A lot of people use Apple.

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It's just sometimes drivers, right?

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Like we talk about drivers and firmware, sometimes they don't work the way they should.

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And I've seen an Apple TV just kind of slow down the network for everyone in the surrounding area.

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But when we replaced it, it was fine.

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And so when it comes to throughput, Wi-Fi six is really aimed towards efficiency.

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And just remember, it's high efficiency.

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So we're not we're not really aiming towards increasing throughputs dramatically.

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I think as a byproduct of the efficiency we're going to see throughput increase.

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Yeah.

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That said, we I don't think we're going to see this until all the devices on the network are wi fi

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six.

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I mean, you've said that a few times now, you know, high efficiency.

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It's efficiency.

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So can you explain what that actually means?

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So, I mean, if I'm in the middle of the desert and I've got a little wi fi ap by my by my side, it

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doesn't sound like it's going to make a lot of difference.

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But in your environment with a whole bunch of students roaming around, it sounds like it'll make a

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difference.

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Could you explain that in more detail?

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And let's go a bit technical.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So if we go back to what we're using now, which is AC or wi fi five.

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Yeah, that was called very high throughput.

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That means that we were we had better or increased channel bonding.

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So if you think in 20 megahertz, 40 megahertz, 80 megahertz, 160 megahertz, the more channels you

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add, right, you're widening your lane so you can push more data that increases your throughput.

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Now, we're not increasing any channels in Wi-Fi six.

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What we're doing is making better use of those channels.

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So if you think in terms of like a single lane highway and you've got a single car going through, it's

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like a single transmission.

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When a device wants to talk or transmit, it's going to send data, but it's like one device at a time.

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A single transmission doesn't matter how much data it's going to push, it's just a single transmission

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going through.

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Right.

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And you've driven on a highway, you've seen cars where or you've been behind a car that's maybe too

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slow, right?

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Yeah.

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You're driving your Ferrari and I wish there's a little, I don't know, Pinto in front of you and it's

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just not moving as fast as you can.

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Right.

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That's very similar to wi fi where you've got devices that may be slower that have the legacy protocols,

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maybe your 802 11 B or G or N, and then you've got your latest, your eight or 211 AC.

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That's your Ferrari.

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You're driving behind, you're transmitting behind somebody that's maybe too slow.

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So you have to wait for that device to transmit, get off, and then you can get on.

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You might transmit faster because you've got faster speeds, more spatial streams, more radios.

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You know, your two by two, three by three, four by four.

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I'm going to I'm going to ask you about all of those terms in a moment.

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But carry on.

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But with eight or to 11 a or wi fi six they introduce.

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So let me back up a little bit.

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That term that I've just discussed right there is called ODM Orthogonal Frequency Division, multiplexing.

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Yeah.

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With WiFi six, they introduce something, a technology that they're borrowing or using from cellular

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technologies called off DMA.

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And that's orthogonal, orthogonal frequency division, multiple access.

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And what that means is that they're taking that single lane highway or that single channel, and they're

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dividing that up into smaller channels so multiple transmissions can go out at the same time.

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So if you take that single lane highway and Cisco has done a great job at this analogy for this, and

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what they've done is instead of that single car or maybe let's use a truck as an example, like a big

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rig, and you're only sending very little data.

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Like a lot of data that we send are very small bits of data.

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And so that's inefficient in wi fi, if you're just sending very small packets, one transmission at

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a time with wi fi six, you take a truck and you just fill that truck with, you know, large amounts

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of data and you divvy that up.

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And that's different clients that you could transmit to or a client or multiple clients can transmit

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on that same channel at the same time.

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But divvying up that channel into smaller channels.

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So every client is allocated a specific channel or a specific length of a channel, and at least now

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in a single transmit or what we call a transmit opportunity TCP, we can send multiple transmissions

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there.

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And so that's making better use of that single channel and taking advantage of a lot of transmissions

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that are smaller packet sizes or frame sizes, the payloads.

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And then just with that efficiency, we should see throughput increase theoretically because because

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of that.

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And that's kind of the the gist of it.

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I would I'll send you a link, David, of the Cisco video that really kills it on the analogy because

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it's really good.

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It really helps people understand what we're talking about when it comes to WiFi six because I think

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WiFi six is the most complex protocol right now for wireless.

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It's a lot to understand and there's so many things that nobody has talked, has spoken about.

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But that's why I'm talking to you, because you're going to talk.

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Talk about it.

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I'll try my best.

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Of course not putting you on the spot.

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So, I mean, just for everyone's benefit, I warn role that on this call I'm going to poke him because

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I want to try and get to the nitty gritty and try and get a good understanding of how all of this works

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so well.

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Hopefully we'll get through all of it during this call.

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But, you know, just just let me know if I'm poking too hard.